Ok, I'll pull myself away from my fiddle for awhile....
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jc, I reject the living way argument.
==========
My "living way" handout was merely a statement of principle -
applied to the
field of human communication. I sent it to you to make the point that our
habitual thoughts and actions reveal to us what we've actually been
desiring. This is often contrasted or even opposed to what we'd like to
tell ourselves and others that we "desire".
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i appreciate your call for honesty
that i am listening to
however i am not interested in explanations and exact answers maybe they work
for others not for me i feel it is rather honest to ask why i would want
anything at all other than what i already have?
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It is honest to ask it, but disingenuous to hold this statement up as a
shield to avoid facing our Godzilla side (a.k.a. "The Red Lion" or
Kundalini energy, or Driving Subconscious Procreative force). That side of us
which contains our driving energy, and which we must transmute and direct. We
must learn to Embrace the shadow so that we may lovingly transmute it. It is the
driving force which provides the impetus for us to climb the mountain of
attainment/enlightenment.
==========
i am caught all the time wanting other than that however i think this needs
to be looked at
=========
This is what I was looking for. This issue is what I addressed in the handout. I say to
myself and others that I want X, where X is some grand and lofty thing. But the fact of
the matter is that I pay lip service to X, while my actions reveal other motives.
Admitting this to oneself is important.
=========
second i didn't say i dont believe that it was a virtue to have no desires i
said to relinquish all but one desire and the man with many (or multiple)
desires is in hell (or conflict)
anyway this honesty thing is interesting what do you mean by honesty? is it care
to engage in good faith and in a serious manner? that makes sense and at times
ive failed at that, i can see.
=========
Honesty means admitting what you know. If you know that you would like to pursue
desire X, but find yourself being driven by desires a,b,c,d,e,f,g... then it
would be honest to admit it when asked "What do you Desire". One may
want to show a nice face to others and say "I desire X", and not
mention a,b,c,d,e,f,g, but when you're in conflict - saying X is my goal, but
acting from a,b,c,d,etc... then it is my duty as a friend to (gently?) point out
this incongruity.
So Here's a question for you:
Which do you think about more often:
Sex (or Sex problems)
Women (or women problems)
Love (or love problems)
Food
Money (or money problems)
Health (or health problems)
Job (or job problems)
Family (or family problems)
God (or problems one has with God)
Letting Go (or Problems with attachment)
Gratitude (or frustration with a sense of lack)
If it is true that your overwhelming desire was "to relinquish all
desire but one.", then it would seem that "Letting go" and
"Gratitude" (or similar corollaries to your desire) would be high on
the list. Yet from my observation these two traits still represent significant
challenges (for me as well).
The problem is how to engage in Life (and solve our problems) without being
"attached" to the results.
Take every item from the list, Women for example.
The issue is how to relate to Women in a healthy way, without attachment to
results.
So one does not have to give up women, or sex, or a good job in order to pursue
"letting go". One has to engage with life, but "let go" of
attachment to the results.
So if I was going to answer the question of "what do you want"
honestly I would state:
I want to engage with LIFE, and dance the dance of LIFE in all things. So in
all my associated desires and endeavors (Job, Women, friends, family, hobbies,
etc..) it is my goal to be in the NOW as much as possible (and all that this
means). It is my understanding of this goal that I must learn to ACT with full
intention, but without "attachment" to results. Where there is
"attachment" it is my desire to be aware of it so that I may transmute
it.
I admit that I have several mundane-level desires (Love, Security, etc...) ,
but I also acknowledge that I have an overarching desire which encompasses all
others. And that DESIRE is a desire for more living-ness, more alive-ness. And
my understanding at this time is that in order to obtain this living-ness I need
to learn to Engage in the field where I currently am (ie. my "lesser
desires" and "problems"), without "attachment" to the
results.
If you want specifics I could give you examples of how I apply/pursue my
greater desire in my every-day fields of endeavor (Sex, Work, Music, just to
name a few).
Sex: Learning to give the woman pleasure without popping your cork after 2
minutes. This requires letting go of one's own desire to "get the
result" (either my orgasm or hers) , and instead be in the now of loving
and pleasing the other.
Job: Learning not to take work problems personally, and getting a healthy
perspective on the proper role of a job in my life. Learning that I am not my
job. Becoming a contractor has helped immensely in this.
Music: Learning to enjoy the music one is capable of making now, instead of
getting frustrated that I can't play like a virtuoso yet. Letting go of the
result of playing to a certain level. (same for my Art drawings)
See how one can pursue their greater desire in the midst of artfully engaging
in LIFE?
It is in my lesser desires that I pursue my Greatest Desire. My lesser
desires create fields of activity (relationships, Sex, Art, Music, etc..) which
provide me with opportunities to pursue my Greatest Desire.
Thus, my ONE DESIRE takes many forms in many fields of activity.
jc
=========
this "living way" doesn't work for me in discussing matters like this.
it may be a short coming of mine i am not certain but ive seen a lot of
jackasses who have jumped onto that band wagon and they are not really serious
(or honest) at all in regards to interacting in any way other than the way they
want to interact and yet that wrap it up in words like in a living way.
K
========
K, this was my exact point in the handout. It is imperative that we
examine, HONESTLY, our actual desires, not just the ones that are pretty. It is
these actual (mundane) desires which are the raw material which will allow you
to pursue your Greatest Desire!
This bears repeating:
IT IS THESE ACTUAL MUNDANE DESIRES WHICH PROVIDE THE RAW MATERIAL WHICH WILL ALLOW YOU TO PURSUE YOUR GREATEST DESIRE.
jc
==========================
clarity on this point is difficult i think but there are so many who are looking
for truth in a book or teaching and to bridge the gap so to speak between the
understanding of concepts and the fuller experience of that which the speaker or
teaching is talking is difficult often i think
K
===========================
K, the "finger pointing at the moon" cannot give us the experience
of the moon, true. But before one can start looking for the moon, they often need
some initial direction as to where and how to look. Thus the initial necessity of the pointing
finger. Now Buddhism is one "finger", as is ACIM, B., and even Christianity (understood on a deeper
level). But first one has to understand the "finger" and where it's pointing in order to
start looking in the right direction. So mistaking the finger pointing at the moon, for the moon itself is a
common neophyte mistake applicable to ALL spiritual teachings. IF one applies them self to the
work (and this is a BIG IF, since most folks merely skim until their curiosity is satisfied) they
will eventually recognize the "teaching" for what it is - only a
pointer, only a rough map, only a discipline designed to get them pointed and moving
in the right direction so that by God's grace, they may achieve enlightenment.
jc
=======
you made a good point about connecting following ones own path and desire by
stating:
"After all, we must be allowed to follow our own path, each as we
DESIRE."
but it doesn't really clear up our seeming differences with regard to desire.
mine seemingly talking of relinquishing all desires but the one and yours
seemingly talking of working with and transmuting the desires one has already.
K
=======
I don't think we are really so far apart, because when you examine your
statement "relinquishing all desires but One", closely you may find
something there. I invite you to meditate on this.
Is something being relinquished? what?
Is something being transmuted? what?
Here's a hint:
"In ALL things great and small, I see the Beauty of the Divine
Expression".
ALL things. Not just the "lofty" desires. Even those base desires
contain something which when properly understood, will provide our salvation.
"Transmutation, not presumptuous denial, is the weapon of the
Master"
jc
=======
i think you may agree that "right" action and "right"
desire go together. do you think a red lion is going to come under ones control
easily and with out a fight?
K
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So how does the woman tame/control the Red Lion? (and she DOES tame him).
jc
=======
The symbolism here is not ambiguous but points to the fact that this is the
king of beasts and i might add very very deceptive which it came to me today is
more indicative of the serpent in the garden whos whole deal was to tempt eve
and adam that if they ate from the forbidden tree then the would have greater
life and knowledge right? powers like the gods, right is this your
understanding, knowledge of good and evil.
K
========
So did the Serpent lie?
The real joke here is that the serpent was telling the truth. For the Tempter
and the Redeemer are One in the Same. That which leads us into temptation
eventually delivers us from evil once we learn to understand and control it (the
Serpent Power, the Red Lion).
jc
=========
i feel that judgment certainly comes in here but also desire., the desire for
more than what god has given, always more, this "unpurified" desire,
coming with it a loss of innocence or experience of guilt or shame (nakedness).
K
=========
Desire for more than God has given, or desire to be free of the bondage and
limitation that our state of consciousness is in?
The desire for liberation is NOT a desire for more than God has given, it is
a desire for God's promise as yet un-realized in the individual's consciousness.
It is the Universal aspiration of every living thing.
The mistake is in assuming that the limitation & ignorance you find
yourself in is supposed to stay that way, because that is what God has given
you. The real reason you've been given limitation / bondage is so that you'll
strive to over come them and in so doing grow in consciousness. Like the Bible
parable about the master giving two of his servants some money. One invests it
and the other buries it in the ground for safekeeping. When the master returns,
he rewards the servant who invested it and multiplied it. To the servant who
just buried it, the master delivers his wrath!
jc
==========
any way give me your comments if you have anything else to say on this matter
or have a different understanding regarding these two metaphors, the lion, the
serpent and the eating of the fruit, with regard to desire and judgment or guilt
and shame etc.
K
===================
K,
Why do you think the 2 clerics (in Tarot Key 5) are kneeling? Is somebody beating them with a
stick? Are they being forced to kneel against their will? I think not.
***they are kneeling non the less.***
and so the problem remains. they are kneeling and i am not.
========
K,
When I invite you to take a closer look at something, I am not trying to give
you an answer, but am inviting you to take a seed-thought and meditate on it, in
order to find the answer within yourself. If you don't want to, then that's OK.
Do what you WANT. If you want to kneel, then kneel. If you want to stand, then
stand.
What do you Want?
Since we're using Tarot Symbolism, I invite you to inspect Tarot Key 6 (The
Lovers). For the three types of knowledge of which you speak are all clearly
shown there, as well as their proper harmonious relationship to each-other.
jc
==========
jc
unless you or i have the intuitive and/or "direct seeing" that i
alluded to then this type of understanding a key or a lesson is very limited.
your answer here simply re-affirms the necessity for somehow speaking to this
issue. the keys that i know have been helpful at times but i am not really
interested in being referred to a key or any teaching to get answers. i want
direct answers / direct knowing.
K
============
Do you? Then pursue your desires. (which is happening already). Whether you
wish to "get" some thing, or "deny" yourself some thing, or pursue
some process, or avoid some other process, these are all means of obtaining
"experience". That's the message of the serpent - "Go out there
and get Experience". Whether you call it "the school of hard
knocks" or the "college of musical knowledge" you can't beat
experience or direct perceptive knowledge. Like I said before there ain't no
short-cuts.
There is, however, a way of accelerating this process. It's by obtaining our
"karmic knocks" faster and more intensely so that we can learn the
lessons contained therein.
In fact, for me, some of my karma has speed up so fast that it has become
"instant karma". As soon as I think it, I'm hit with the mental
repercussions which dissuade me from thinking it for very long if it be a
negative thought. So it's not a matter of desiring something and then trying to
deny myself the "thing" because I think it's bad for me. Instead the
very act of desiring something impure (in many cases), brings the repercussions
to me symbolically where I can experience them karmically and thus "get
over it". Thus, I can sometimes "get what I want" without having
to experience it physically.
I'll share with you and example of my "direct knowing" in this
realm.
There is a reason I never stay angry about anything very long. On those rare occasions
when I get really pissed, I imagine myself hurting the other person. In so
doing, I instantly reap the karmic shock and horror of my (mental) deed -
including physical nausea and light headed-ness. Thus I instantly feel the anger
come back to me and hurt me. This causes me to quickly drop the anger and to
pray to God for help and mercy in my suffering. Thus in a matter of a few
seconds I go from Anger to Humility - not because I'm so "holy", but
because I was able to GET what I (in my moment of anger) thought I wanted!
I can see how I'm learning to transmute my desires by getting what I want
(either physically, emotionally, mentally, or spiritually). Getting what I want
helps me see (karmically) into the essence of that desire and thus aids my
development of discrimination and thus consciousness.
Now if my perception was such that I could see into the essence of all
"things", then if I could get in touch with the essence (which is at
the core of all things), then I could always instantly get what I want.
jc
=================
that's almost as bad as being told by the Kristnamurti crowd to come do the
48 tapes of Gibson in order that i get an answer to a question that i am asking in
reference to a topic that they have brought up.
what's up with that response?
K
========
The answer is in the process, not the content. One can invite you to engage
in a process, but the decision is yours. You can do what you WANT. You WILL do
what you WANT. K, I command you to do what you WANT. Nothing I say
matters, because you'll do what you WANT.
