Discussions

K.,

Good discussion this weekend, particularly Sunday morning.

I'd like to expand on one aspect of our Sunday morning discussion where we
were discussing the various discussion groups and on the process of
interaction and its relationship to "truth".

To reiterate what I explained as my typical style of interaction. (note: I
do not "always" do this, but I see this as my goal):

My motivation is to try and understand the "other". Which is actually a
form of "Union" with the other.  I try to see where they are coming from.

I try to explain my point of view in a way that I feel has the best chance
of being understood by that person, given where they are coming from
(mentally, intellectually, emotionally, conceptually). Like giving milk to
babies, and meat to adults, if one wishes to help someone "assimilate" and
"understand" their idea, the "form" of the nourishment or communication
needs to be matched to the recipients ability to assimilate. Otherwise
you're not going to be effective in helping the other person assimilate.
Instead the food/concept will remain uneaten, undigested, spilled on the
floor, and maybe even thrown back up on you. (of course if you "want" a
food fight, then throwing raw meat at babies may be effective in starting
the type of raucous interaction you sometimes seek).

I try to build an emotional bridge of trust between myself and the other to open up the communications in my effort to understand the other. Now this does NOT mean that interaction will always be "pleasant", since as we come to understand each other, there very well may be instances where we can "see" another person's blind spot, and then try to help them "see" where they are "stuck". This trying to help another see where they are stuck can get very uncomfortable indeed, depending upon both our skill at helping them see (without inciting fear/anger in them), and at their readiness to really "look" at their own "stuff".

Now, comes the question:

What does any of this have to do with TRUTH?

What is the Greatest Truth? The UNITY of ALL. What is the Greatest Lie? Separation.

Truth cannot be comprehended from the deluded belief in Separation. And as the intellect separates, truth cannot be comprehended from a purely "intellectual" point of view. In a discussion, the desire to try and extract some conceptual truth, separate from the interaction and process of the relationship is a delusion. It's like trying to steal some jewel from God's throne and take it back with you. As stated in all mythologies, such thieves always come up empty handed.

Attempting to approach truth in a discussion with others requires using the intellect in its proper role which is to break down/ refine/ discriminate the "form" of things into smaller pieces. But to take the next crucial step to find the truth or principles behind these various forms requires the ability to synthesize - to see the face of the beloved TRUTH behind the veil of separation. This true discrimination of TRUTH / UNITY requires the spiritual INTUITION which is activated by LOVE and a desire to be quiet and open to this LOVE force in both oneself and in the other person.

In our relationships and interactions with others, we have the best opportunity to contact this TRUTH of UNITY if we can use our intellect / reason to break down the walls, the barriers, the mindless chatter, the frightened babbling, the sloppy word spouting, and lovingly build that bridge which enables us to contact the TRUTH, UNITY and LOVE behind, and within the forms we call the "other'. In so doing we heal not only the other, but also ourselves.

Seeking an intellectual grasp of some truth, is a fine thing, but to be able to actually experientially contact this truth of Unity in the here and now, and with another is one of the most awesome, unbelievable, complete, and satisfying ways to contact, grasp, and assimilate, TRUTH that there is.

So basically, seeking the face of the beloved (trying to understand the other) is a way of contacting TRUTH that so far outstrips the purely intellectual / conceptual pursuit of truth that it ain't even funny!  For THERE IS NO UNDERSTANDING WITHOUT LOVE.

The Tower is a prison, and not a strong castle of defense. When I see someone calling down, or issuing challenges or threats from their tall Tower, I can feel compassion because I see their tower as a prison. My compassion is then directed towards helping them see their prison (where they are in bondage, where they are "stuck"). With compassion being my guide, sometimes it is necessary to employ Severity, but this must always be tempered with Love. In so doing, I am also helping MYSELF to dismantle my own Tower Prison.

jc
(may my castle walls come tumbling town and set me free)

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H.,

Regarding our discussions, I'm willing to meet you half way, but just as I don't expect you to learn my spiritual language (Hebrew and Cabbala, and Tarot), don't expect me to so searching chapter and verse in the Bible to illustrate every concept that I have to offer.

I'll meet you half way:

I'll speak "English" - from my heart and from my personal experience, and attempt to always illustrate a universal principle that comes from God.

Are you willing to do the same? If not then what motive have you for engaging in discussion?

Now, if you have any reasonable degree of understanding of the teachings of your chosen path (exoteric Christianity), then you should be able to both relate the teachings (of the Bible) to your own personal life and experience, and be able to articulate the universal principle contained within that teaching. If you're not willing to do that, than I would assert that your understanding of your own religion is superficial, and that you are not ,as yet, a serious spiritual aspirant.

Now if I'm wrong here, and you can and do perform these things in your own life, then please disregard the following. However if you can and do relate the teachings and principles to your own life, and can understand
the universal principles contained therein, and do apply them, then why have you not shared this with me all this time? I prefer to think that your lack of sharing in this area is due to a lack of skill or knowledge, and not because of some ulterior motive.

I don't mean to be hard on you, H., but hiding behind the "put it into MY language or I won't even consider it" excuse is a cop out. It tells me that you don't understand your own spiritual path in sufficient depth to be able to relate it to the real world of everyday life to the point where you can articulate it to others. This is nothing to be ashamed of. Yet it points out the need for some humility before judging and rejecting "ideas" out of hand before trying to understand the principles that they contain. 

So as your friend, I would humbly suggest that you pursue your path of knowing the Bible and relating its teachings to your every-day life experience to the point where you can recognize the PRINCIPLES and TRUTHS that the Bible is teaching, put those principles into practice, and establish contact with and awareness of the Holy Spirit. Then, truly your reliance upon Christ will be assured.

jc

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K,

I can understand you views on the subject.

You wrote:

===
"I feel as if it is no longer well advised to have informal/social/spiritual discussions in the manner in which you me and patty and shirley did last night. For me it makes light of a very difficult and "serious" matter. I will still go out socially with you and patty and shirley, but no longer will I participate in such spiritually ill advised discussions. "
===

Last night was very interesting in several ways, as I think the energy that Shirley added to the group resulted in some unusual exchanges:

1) There was more "contention" than normal:
I saw you "react" to Shirley's broad sweeping platitudes by challenging her. I saw Shirley and Patti "go at it" and Shirley expressing some serious irritation with the way Patti likes to interact by paraphrasing to others. 2) I was more humorous and jovial than usual. Partly in response to the "jousting" I saw going on between the 3 of you , and the desire to keep things on a Good Will level. I also had the intuitive sense that some humor was needed in order chase away the illusion of separation that was looming in some of the conversations.

While I believe that any discussion should be "serious" in terms of being "Honest", and in terms of pointing out (with love) our own mind games that we play on each other and on ourselves, we still must be able to do so with "Good Will" for each other. In other words, if we are going to be interacting with each other from a place of love and unity instead of "separation" then we need to interact in a way that expresses BOTH "Discernment" AND "Tolerance".

Tolerance (Mercy) without Discernment (Justice) results in everybody just saying "All is one" as we jerk each other off with airy-fairy platitudes (Weakness that strengthens the sin in the sinner).

Discernment (Justice) without Tolerance (Mercy) results in each of us cutting and wounding each other with our insightful observations. (Cold cruelty)

So as we get together and meet in an atmosphere that has elements of both "social tolerance" (a swank and friendly Avant-Garde coffee shop) and "Insightful discernment" (lots of coffee and armchair philosophers at every table) then this presents an excellent crucible (or test laboratory) for us to APPLY the concepts that we are studying. In other words our "conversations" provide an "opportunity" to exercise both "Discernment" and "Tolerance". 

Shirley seems to often err on the "Tolerance" side of things as does Patti.

This imbalance (of tolerance/mercy) may be partly the reason you often seem to feel the need to make "distinctions".

So HOW does one find the BALANCE between "Justice and Mercy" or in this specific subcategory - the balance between "Tolerance" and "Discernment" ? 

One way that I have discovered, that seems to move towards both goals, is to make my #1 top priority the "UNDERSTANDING" of what the other person is saying.

To strive to understand first is to affirm the value of the other person (love/tolerance/mercy). Once you feel you understand what they are "saying" and "feeling", you can help them say it better by paraphrasing their expression back to them (active listening) and then respectfully pointing out your position/observation as it compares/contrasts their expression. 

For example:

Susan: "xxxx"
Jack: "Susan, so what your're saying is yyyy"

Where "xxxx" is Shirley's own expression of some concept, and "yyyy" is your paraphrase of that concept, clothed in the language of PRINCIPLES.

Thus, by seeing the principle behind their clumsy attempt to express, you
can help them think more clearly for themselves, as you simultaneously
point out their potential errors and have them thank you for it. So you've simultaneously exercised "Discernment" by seeing the principles (expressed accurately or inaccurately) in their expressed ideas, and you've helped them refine their own thinking. By helping them you've expressed in the best way possible your love and acceptance of them, because you saw them as valuable enough to really engage with and help them in their thinking. This process is the essence of being a good counselor and is shown in principle by the Tarot Key sequence 0-1-2-3-4-5-6.

You wrote:

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"I believe if the purpose of a meeting is to discuss and reflect upon spiritual matters then that should be the only purpose and the environment and milieu of such a meeting must be in keeping with such a real and "serious" topic. I don't at the  moment feel that that is possible in an informal and anything goes/undisciplined meeting. "
====

K., ALL conversations are about spiritual matters, not just the ones that focus the intellect upon "lofty abstract spiritual principles".

When I made the comment "last night at the pub, when the guitar player was slamming down the beers, I felt at one with the universe, didn't you?", I was expressing two things:

1) Humor. Mirth is attributed to the Devil K15. This is the proper way to face separative appearances that we see everywhere. At "Flannigans" Irish Pub, I really did feel a sense of camaraderie with my fellow human beings. Anything that melts away the "mask" (pretentiousness, putting on airs, people being aloof, people being overly "serious", etc....) helps us see the face of the beloved - helps us see the real human being behind the masks and games that we all play with ourselves and each other.

2) To point out the fact that the place to do the work is not in some artificial intellectual jousting field, but in our everyday interactions with others. That means that you must seek the face of the beloved not only when you meditate in the silence of your room, but also in your interactions with your room-mate, with the egoic child who threw a stick at you, with the drunk guitar player, with the irritating friend who is always saying airy-fairy shit, and with those aspects of yourself that you may currently loathe, shame, and feel angry at.

When you say that you don't think it is possible to participate in
spiritual discussions in a social and friendly environment you are
expressing your recognition of some limitation within yourself.

The key is to always try to "Understand" others first. To try and understand others instead of giving credence to your initial (emotional) reaction to them, is the essence of BOTH discernment and tolerance - it is the essence of LOVE and Unity. But you first have to get out of your Tower (K16) of delusion, separation, and egoic self-will.

So how do we get out of our towers of self built separation?

HUMOR!

Laugh at the Devil (K15), and thus Shatter your Tower (K16) of separation, allowing the process of revelation of truth and understanding (K17) to take place via the "real world", "real time", "in the now", "interpersonal", process of meditation upon the subject at hand. 

You wrote:
=====
"I definitely want to still do things with you all. I just don't want to walk down what seems to me to be a ill advised and dead path."
=====

K, I still want to do things with you too, but I wish to let you know
that what you see as an "ill advised and dead path" is in reality your path
of Salvation.

For it provides you with an opportunity to chase away and dissolve the Devil of separation with the solvent of humor, discernment and tolerance. Our get-togethers are an IDEAL alchemical laboratory for perfecting and transmuting our reactions to "appearances" in a supportive environment.

You could even think of it as a "Spiritual Toastmasters" where we help each other see in all things both great and small, the beauty of the divine expression.

jc.

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 jc

 i begun working on a response to your latest allegations.

 Does my exaggerated sarcastic use of words that attempt to drive a point home  with you (and me) and create a space so to keep from accepting the presumption  of guilt or lack of any kind from seemingly sticking to me, bother you?
K.
#####

Don't bother me a bit. In fact, I find it quite enjoyable. Oh, For the Joys of Battle! :-)
jc
#####

 is it childish or serve a purpose of some sort?

 it is not the best tactic if you want to keep a friendship that's peaceful, or  if i want to communicate in a manner that is entirely without gimmick/  entirely authentic but it does serve to, at times, allow myself to comb and  test new and deeper waters by prompting ones shit to become quite evident for  me as well as the other. then again it may not be entirely in good faith. but  then neither is an exchange in which conclusions/guilt-lack are accepted as  valid and true.

K.
#####

One man's elixir is another man's shit, but the proof of the pudding is in the tasting.
jc

#####

 i am real impressed and thankful that i have a friend who is as sharp as you  are in these matters and who seems to be able to whether the storm of being  able to risk being right/wrong to some degree and yet steadfast in terms of  resolve to not sacrifice truth one iota simply to agree superficially and to  maintain the delusion that all is well as one remains in the un-illuminated  state.

K.
#####

So long as the engagement is "honorable" (ie not ad-hominem), I really do enjoy a good honest exchange of ideas, feelings, beliefs, and sharing of one's SELF, however "heated" it may be. In fact one of the great advantages of a "heated" debate is that it is not self-conscious, and thus each participant has NOT the opportunity to "mask" his or her direct response. This is the wonderful TESTING (K14). For it is in our emotional responses to things in our environment, that indicate to us (and others) where we really are spiritually.

So turn up the heat
and feel the beat
and let us meet
upon the field of honor

For in the fight
to see what's right
We'll come to see
the Unity,
or else we'll be
a goner.

(not "exactly" what I wanted to say, but at least it Rhymes)

jc
#####

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To whom it may concern,

I have decided to unsubscribe to this mailing list, so please take me off. I have had a disappointing experience on this mailing list due to the lack of quality discussion about B. I joined this mailing list in order to expand my knowledge about B. and the "Great Work", and so far, all I seem to be receiving from this list are private conversations between people, pointless discussions that are unclear in the communication of the ideas, and endless, boring rabble that needs not be on this list. I am not saying that ALL of the mail I get, is useless, however, I do throw away much of what I receive. The article that I find useful enough to keep are the articles on the history of the B. principles, the definitions and explanations about the TAROT, and the useful information about the "Great Work". The articles that I have chosen to keep were very little compared to the amount I have thrown away. That defeats the entire purpose of joining this mailing list. I am sorry if I have offended anyone who is feeling guilty about writing pointless messages and answering questions that you obviously have no clue. If anyone knows of another mailing list that truly helps us aspirants gain the knowledge and wisdom to better ourselves and help us along "The Path" without all of the rambling about personal experiences, poems, and discussions that have little or nothing to do with B., please e-mail me at [x] with the name of the other mailing list. I would greatly appreciate it.  J.S.

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J.S.,

Sorry to hear of your disappointment with this list. One thing I have always found helpful is this:

To Avoid Disappointment, Change your Expectations. (Key 12)

The only place you're going to get such a high percentage of clear cut succinct explanations of principles and definitions is through the lessons themselves. By contrast, on any listserv you are going to also get personal stories, digressions, useful applications, interesting insights, ramblings, poetic expressions, and gems of wisdom. Wherever you allow the free expression of ideas you are going to get a mixture of the theoretical, the practical, and the impractical - That's just the way it is. It's called the Human Condition.

The only way to decrease the amount of "noise" on this list would be to stifle free expression. It's not worth it to me. For the stuff I'm not interested in reading, I know where my delete button is. In general, however, I do recognize the problem with information overload and the amount of effort it takes just to determine if something is interesting and useful. Information overload is a problem with the internet and with modern life.

I you think you can find a listserv that's more focused, I wish you luck. I, however, see this listserv like the Empress - an out flowing of creativity based on a given focus (B./Tarot/Cabalah). I don't expect the Empress to edit herself to my liking. It's my job to use the Emperor to edit and pare down the material to my own liking in accordance with my own inner Constitution, or to eliminate participation on the list altogether if required. Only by using your Emperor can you get to that stage shown by Key 5 - contact with what's true for you.

Best Wishes,

JC

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I would also add that esoteric principles must be expressed in one's daily interaction and you will find your own personal experience reflected in the stories that others tell on this forum. These stories are recounted for the benefit of others. This is one of the most unique and powerful interactive teaching tools in the world. N.J.

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"Perhaps we should all try to boil our main ideas down to as concise an expression as possible, rather than use indefinite terms and repetition to communicate our ideas."

YES!

One of the ways that I do this is to annotate my sentences and concepts with the applicable tarot keys that symbolize the idea/concept. I use the tarot keys as a form of shorthand to express what I'm saying. In this way I'm using my Emperor to organize (K4) my creative (K3) thoughts into a form more able to tune the mind to the truth (K5) of the principles that I am trying to convey. This helps all of us to better discriminate (K6) and thus by employing the concise and accurate use of Speech we enable our vehicles (K7) to better express the One Will.

Get the idea?

JC

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