Confronting the Errors of Others

K,

I understand the dilemma of witnessing a person, who is in somewhat of a leadership or position of authority, dispense falsehood. It's one thing to display one's own ignorance or opinion, but quite another for one to try and pull others down along a false path. Sometimes compassion mandates that we stand up for others to protect them, or at least give them an opportunity to see another side of the story.

If one can see clearly what is going on, then the "challenge" of what to do, becomes easier. If you can see clearly what is happening, then you'll KNOW what to do. This has been my universal experience, and often this has released me from the necessity of taking any "external" action at all. 

Of course, what does one do when they can't see clearly?

Whatever it is that you DO in this case, it will be the most important thing you can do to advance your spiritual development ("do-sow-reap-know" is God's foolproof evolutionary LAW).

Take Care,

JC.

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so i basically agree with you so instead of reacting at some level to another's nonsense then i might want to "attack" the problem in a different way added to the difficultly of challenging or questioning the words and beliefs of another such as Dave is the fact that in that group he is as a sort of folk hero to and guru to many there. some of which i give him credit for and is well deserved. however it is a dicey prospect for me to challenge his words in a way that does not include my moving into the conflict and right wrong mentality that often prevails in the group.

i am learning.

i believe that one must speak up for truth and question everything that is not in keeping with truth if one wants to awaken and devote oneself to the the humanity's task of awakening. i am certain that one must do so in ways that do not promote further conflict whenever possible. one must be honest and clear with regard to ones shortcomings this has been very difficult for me. one must also be honest and clear regarding others (humanities shortcomings) i stand by my assessment of the shortcomings of the thinking that Dave seemed to be professing as valid. something must be said particularly since we are participating in a group discussion. the manner in which it is said must be improved. tolerating the nonsense as a prescription for seeing beyond the mask i don't agree with. i also don't agree with detouring into conflict and confusion as i did in part with my upset with what E.P. said.

the status of E.P.  being beyond reproach, kind of like a band with their following of groupies makes it difficult for me to stay present and not detour into my nonsense. this is a great challenge for me the question of whether to speak up, stay quiet, agree nod my head or to challenge, directly or in directly.

i am over this discussion but i am certain you'll want to respond to reiterate your point about seeing the beloved behind the mask of the devil.

That's all well and fine and correct i am sure so its prompting me to look again at me relating to situations such as these. i think however the failure for people of clear insight and understanding along as it must be with compassion is the only problem facing the human
race.

K

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Date: Tuesday, September 07, 1999 7:07 PM
Subject: hey jc

i have a minute or two to write

sometime we'll have to continue or discussion of spiritual matters regarding the different environments and try to see more clearly where our differences are and from where or what they emerge. or maybe we just are not fully explaining what it is were getting at

anyway but i wanted to commend you on remaining silent while your dad and i were having our discussion

K
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K, over the years I have learned to filter out most of what Mom and Dad have to say when they start "playing the tape" of their old biased habit patterns. I've seen and heard the pattern so many times now that it no longer has the same power to provoke me, as it once did. The day you came over, I got into a good discussion with Dad over lunch. Basically, I changed my tactics. When he would say something outwardly stupid, or seemingly judgmental and biased, I would not react to his statement. Instead I would ask him a question, and paraphrase his statements, in order to help him see his folly. (the Socratic method).

Paraphrasing greatly, It went something like this:

Dad: Food is the most important thing in the world.

Me: Why is that?

Dad: If it weren't for the farmers ...etc...

Me: So what you've saying is that the farmers are not getting their fair share of credit.

Dad: The Farmers have been shafted by the government.

Dad: Our government is unfair.

Me: So how do we correct the situation and establish fairness in government?

Dad: The People have to take back control, etc...

Me: How does one establish this?

Dad: Education.

Me: So what constitutes a "proper" education?

Dad: Training in the fundamentals, etc...

Me: So is it just learning how to read, etc..? We already have that. There must be something else missing? Of all the things wrong with education, you should be able to rank them, from most impact to least, so that we can focus our energies on the biggest problem first. So rank them. What's the most important?

Dad: The Family. There has to be a strong family unit.

Me: So what constitutes a properly constructed family unit:?

Dad: A Mother and Father.... and the fact that the Father is the head of the house hold.

(Dad was venting his obvious frustration that Mom largely does as she pleases. At this point Mom jumps in and starts to criticize dad, but I stop her, assuring her that I'm capable of bringing this to it's proper conclusion myself).

Me: So you're saying that this is the most important thing to restore and save civilization? That the man of the house must be obeyed?

Dad: Yes. That is the most important thing.

Me: Even more important the obeying the Will of God? Are you saying that YOU must be obeyed even before God?

Dad: (at this point Dad gets evasive and starts to pontificate on the may problems caused by the breakdown in the family. He links his own personal problems with the house being disorganized, and with Mom not heeding him, etc.. with the larger breakdown in civilization at large)

Me: If you see these problems, it seems that they are linked to not obeying God. People are putting themselves before God. Perhaps the problem is that you see these things but you do not act in accordance with God's Will. You see, but you do not act.

Dad: Yes, but I can't. She won't let me (referring to Mom).

Me: So Dad, let us review where we've come with this:
You started off with "Food is the most important thing", which lead to the farmers mistreatment by the government, which was caused by the people not taking an active part in government, which was due to lack of education, which is linked to the properly constructed family unit, which is built upon the foundation of a proper relationship between the Man and the Woman. So this now begs the question, Dad. What is the proper relationship between Man and Woman? What's your answer? The fate of all of civilization rests on your reply!

Dad: I don't know.

Me: You don't know? The fate of the universe rests on your answer, Dad! Let's look at it this way. Since you are a man, you should be most qualified to comment on the man's role in establishing this "proper" relationship. So from your perspective what is the man's proper role here?

Dad: ??

Me: Look, you speak of all these problems, but basically you don't know what's going on. All you know is that "bad shit" is happening, but you haven't as clue what's actually going on. How can you propose any solutions to anything? I think you should look within yourself and get right with God. Don't go looking at trying to fix anything "out there". You need to fix your own shit first. Look within, and humble yourself before God, asking his guidance. If you are not being followed (in the family), it is because you are not following God.

So as you can see, I had some fun with Dad already that morning!

The basic thought that allowed me to take this path, was the idea of "understanding" him first, in order to help him see the principles involved in his "problem".

JC's SOCRATIC METHOD:

1) "Help me understand what you're trying to say."
2) "So what you're saying is (paraphrase, but distill his statements to their essential assertion, as you understand it)
3) Take that essential assertion and use it as a jumping off point to see where it leads, deductively.
4) Use questions to lead him to the implications of his assertion. Eventually you will come face to face with one or more principles. Principles which (hopefully) you are well versed in, in their positive application.
5) He will eventually come to a point where he "does not know". At this point make the point for the value of self-examination and humility before God, in order that one may come to know (intuitively) what God's Will is, in this matter.

This process is one of coming to understand the person's "personal constitution" and boundary conditions (where their personal beliefs encounter Universal Principles - the "Unknown" - the "Void"). It is important the the person arrive at these boundary conditions themselves by following the logical (deductive) consequences of their own beliefs and desires. This is where one can help the person make these connections, by using the socratic method. At these boundary conditions a case can then be made for laying aside one's own personal truths, and personal wants, and being open to another way of looking at the "problem", by exercising some self-examination and humility to be open to the Will of God (voice of the
Hierophant).

However, to do this, one needs a very good memory so that they can keep track of where things are going, and not get sidetracked by any red herrings, smoke screens, emotional ploys, or of them trying to change the subject, etc....

I call it 'Using my Emperor to arrive at the throne of the Hierophant'. I just wish that I were humble enough to then kneel before the Inner Teacher as I ought to myself. Then I think my life would be much more at peace. 

It's hard to be humble.

JC.
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i thought that took considerable presence of mind and awareness and wherewithal and letting go when my dad starts in even if a lot of what he says makes  a certain sense it has been almost impossible to keep my presence of mind and not react.

he sees some things so differently than myself and if he is talking to a friend or someone else it is difficult for me stay at peace particularly with him but also with myself.

anyway it was cool coming over and talking with you (and him) i had a little difficulty this weekend because i am dealing with this nearly overwhelming urgency to set my life right with women

any way
i will talk to you later

K

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i don't mean that what you say has no value. it does and has.  are you proud of catching viola like you seemingly did?

K
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I am always overjoyed when I can successfully help someone see their own folly and laugh WITH them when the mask is removed and the face of the beloved appears. Was I proud of my performance? Well I do have to admit that I was "pleased" with myself. I do like to stroke my little dog/pet personality. It likes it, and it doesn't bother me to show it some affection now and then. And it's silly performances do give me such pleasure at times. For I am no more immune from the game than anyone else is. See how easy it can be to cast off the mask? What have I to defend? Nothing, for I am just as much caught up in the game as everyone else is. I admit it, freely and with good humor. If there is any difference, it's my ability to laugh at my own shit more than the average person.

Q: Now is my casting off of one mask, yet only another ploy/mask in this game that you and I are playing? :-)

A: It depends on whether or not you react to the mask, or seek the face beneath it. If you wish to attack yet another perceived mask, then you are still stuck in the game. If, however, you can laugh and let go, then you've gotten the point, and the fool has accomplished his intention.
jc

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 also i am wondering if you feel that such was a premeditated maneuver on your  part or whether it was something else that happened.
K

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It was definitely not premeditated.
In fact, I did not consciously have a clue what was going to happen next. I was running on pure intuition.
jc
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 what i feel needs to be realized is the magnitude of the nonsense that fills  our minds. perhaps this is what you mean by the game.  my spelling will be wrong but the word nink um poop.  that is what we all are.  when i can see the truth that K is a nink um poop and then laugh at that i  think then i know something.  if each individual could admit such and see how they have been duped and  indeed have been and continue to be a nink um poop then we are all getting  somewhere.
K

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Amen, brother K!
jc
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 thanks for the email it seemed relevant and helpful somewhat  maybe you could address my concerns wrt your aim in telling me about how well  you did (reminiscent of some of Paul's recent statements) and in telling me  what should be done as if there is ever one way to approach anything or any  right to think.
K
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Of course there is only one way, K. It is this: Do what you WANT to do.

"What do you WANT to do?" is the evolutionary engine of the Universe.

The secret here is that "at it's root all desire is good, and comes from God", therefore God is the Doer behind EVERY mask.

Life is a pretty amusing game, I'd say. God must really be enjoying this play of his!

jc
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 anyway i could be way off in terms of my characterizations of your mind states  here, but however slight such inclinations might be at some point they must be  voiced.
K
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The Trickster always ends up tricking himself. That's part of the fun!

jc
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E.S. writes:

 Dear CC.,  IMO, there are some times when we can figure out a nice way to say  something that isn't nice, but could be helpful or at least present another  choice which someone may prefer.
=====

Yes, and the art of presenting the appropriate truth at the appropriate time can also be an act of mercy. One's motivation is the key.

Of course, just having watched the 3rd presidential debate tonight, I can also see this art being practiced under a different motivation. The truth can hurt; the truth can heal; the truth can set you free. And a "little truth" (or partial truth), taken out of context can also deceive. BTW, in public discourse, this desire to discover the underlying motivation is sometimes expressed as: "Follow the money trail."

To get to the bottom of things, one often needs to look at the underlying motivation. In the "motivation" lies a deeper truth - for it gives an indication of the desire level of the one who's truth is under scrutiny.

As Aristotle (in his writings on rhetoric) once wrote (paraphrasing): Ethos is more important in persuasion than Pathos or Logos .

The character of the speaker (ethos)- the fitness and transparency of the personality (vehicle) is more important in persuasion than both the emotional appeal, or the logical appeal. In other words, there is a greater value to be found in seeking the face of the beloved behind the mask of personality, than in feelings or abstractions. Now, some might see this focus on "motivations" as an Ad-Homenim argument, and it very well could be if one tried to confuse Truth with Desire. They are two different things, but they are also related (by K16). The personality which wears the false crown lies (K16=TheTower=Peh=mouth as the organ of speech) and builds a tower of falsehood. Our desire nature impacts the degree of truth that we are open to and able to express. Thus motivations ARE important.

The sequence K15-K16-K17-K18-K19 shows the path of truth from lies, to the destruction of lies, to the calm reception of truth, to that truth being built into a new organism, and then igniting into a new order of being.

JC.
wasted again in Margaritaville...looking for my lost shaker of salt ....some people claim that there's a woman (K2) to blame.....but I know....it's my own (K1) damn fault.

(as the man and woman tumble out of the tower)